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| FL18 - Frontline18 .:. Forum > The czechoslovak legion |
| Autor |
Thema: The czechoslovak legion |
 | Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
Postings: 247
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My ethnic background is varied, one could even compare me to Kurtz from Conrad's book, "Heart of Darkness". All of europe contributed to my creation. Because a large portion of my family is from what is now the czech republic, i have taken a great intrest in that lands history. Sadly, the czech peoples contributions during world war 1 are hardly known, even though they were enormously popular with the american press at the time. Czechs served in the austria-hungarian armies, though most defected to the russians. They served with pride in the french, english, russian, and american armies, oftentimes fighting to the death (the austrians executed most czechs they captured). These fighting men should be honored for their sacrifice during the great war. I will be adding several installments to this thread. they are most likely going to be in this order:
1. brief czech history
2. Czech involvment in the armies of the allied armies
3. the czechoslovak legion
4. czech freedom orginizations
please note: i know it is impossible to include every country and group that fought in this mod. That is why I am NOT, repeat NOT, trying to get the czechs in this mod. (although if you want to add them, it would be awesome!!!)
[Editiert von Mad Czech am 21.Aug.2004 um 22:22]
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Installment 1. brief history of the czech lands/people (i should probably add background info 1st)
The czechs are a slavic people. They are related to the russians, poles, slovakians, and the south slavs (what was yugoslavia). The czechs first appeared in bohemia, the area where they live now, around the 6th century. From that time to around 1198 it was ruled by an assortment of people, people to insignificant to point out in this post. From 1198 to 1526 Bohemia was a free kingdom. It was fairly powerful and was also an electorate of the Holy Roman Empire. In 1402 a guy named John Hus comes around, starts preaching against the church, and poof you have the first reformation of the catholic church. This causes bohemia to fight the catholic powers around them, and in 1526 it was taken over by the hapsburgs. From 1526 to 1918 the czech people were subjagted by the ausrtia-hungarian empire. With the French revolution of 1789 the age of romanticism started. This age sparked strong nationalistic feelings in countrys. The czechs, along with the poles and other slavic peoples, were greatly affected by romantisicsm. The nationalism that took root during this time continued to rise until things reached a boiling point in 1914. When the first world war broke out many suppressed peoples saw an oppurtunity to become free. The czechs were one of these peoples. Many czechs no longer in their homeland joined up in the armies of the allies and formed delegations to the allied powers to show that the czech people wanted freedom and supported the efforts of the allies.
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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At the outbreak of the 1st world war the czech people had not had a selfgoverning country in 400 years. This massive war, which involved their oppressors of those 4 centuries, could allow for the re-emergence of the czech nation. Czech hopes were further raised by the idealistic propaganda of President Wilson. Because they wanted to liberate their fellow countrymen, thousands of czechs joined up in the armies of the entente. In france 471 czechs joined the foriegn legion. They suffered 70% losses, but most of them recieved the Military Cross. In england, once the government allowed the czechs to enter the military in 1916, virtually all of the population eligable for service joined up.
The army with the largest amount of czechs was undoubtably the russian's. With large czech colonies, some with populations in the thousands, the russians were able to form the czechoslovak legion. At it's lowest point the legion contained 600 men, and at its highest it had over 100,000 men (once the russians allowed czechs who had defected from the austrians to join up). At first this legion served under russian authority, and was more a brigade then an individual army. The legion focused on scouting and reconnoitering, but also fought bravely in several major battles. The most notable is their activity in the final russian offensive of july 1917. this excerpt from an internet article details the campaign.
"The Czecho-Slavs had been mentioned in Russian official communiques of February 2, 1916, and March 29, 1917. The most glorious part was taken by the Czecho-Slavic Brigade during the last Russian offensive in July, 1917, in which the Czechs showed manifestly the indomitable spirit that animates them. Since every Czech fighting on the side of the Entente was shot, if he was captured by the Austrians, the Czechs everywhere fought to the bitter end, and rather committed suicide than be captured by their enemies. For this reason they were justly feared by the Germans. As in the Hussite wars, the sight of their caps and the sound of their songs struck terror in the hearts of the Germans and Magyars. At the battle of Zborov on July 2, 1917, the Czechs gave the whole world proof of their bravery. Determined to win or fall, they launched an attack almost without ammunition, with bayonets and hand-grenades---and they gained a victory over an enemy vastly superior in numbers."
According to the official Russian communiqué: "On July 2nd, at about three oclock in the afternoon, after a severe and stubborn battle, the gallant troops of the CzechoSlavic Brigade occupied the strongly fortified enemy position on the heights to the west and southwest of the village of Zborov and the fortified village of Koroszylow. Three lines of enemy trenches were penetrated. The enemy has retired across the Little Strypa. The Czecho-Slavic Brigade captured 62 officers and 3,150 soldiers, 15 guns and many machine guns. Many of the captured guns were turned against the enemy."
Unfortunetly not all of the czechs that voluntarily surrendered to the russians could get to the czechoslovak legion. Many of these individuals joined up with the jugo-slav(south slav) corps. Most of the czech officers of this unit were decorated with the highest russian medals. Sadly half of these men commited sucide rather then be captured by the austrians.
this concludes installment two. the next installment will be about the czechoslovak legion under the national council and Professor Masaryk
[Editiert von Mad Czech am 22.Aug.2004 um 00:34]
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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On 11 October 1914 (by the Gregorian calender in use in Russia it was 28 September, the day dedicated to the Czech Patron, Prince St. Wenceslas) Czech and Slovak compatriots took a military oath in Russia and thus officially joined a detachment unit called the Czech Retinue, which was formed by immigrants in Russia and Ukraine and was more than 1,100 men strong. On the square adjacent to the Sophia Cathedral in Kiev the Old Retinuers kissed the banner in the colors representing their struggle's
objectives. The front face of the banner was in red and white with a centered, embroidered St. Wenceslas Crown with linden sprigs, while on the reverse appeared the Czechoslovak tricolor implying two meanings. To the Russian High command it represented soldiers' allegiance to the Russian flag also and the colors of pan-Slavism, symbolizing the continuous Slavic conflict with expansionist Germans. To the Czechs and a handful of Slovaks in the Czech Retinue these colors stood for traditional Slovak colors. Consequently, the Retinue banner, a symbol of the first Czech and Slovak military action abroad, was supplemented with
coats of arms of each part of their native lands - Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia and Slovakia. And during a renaming ceremony, in 1917 the unit became the 1st Rifle Regiment of Master Jan Hus, and its pike finial with the Russian Imperial eagle was replaced with the Hussite chalice.
[Editiert von Mad Czech am 22.Aug.2004 um 00:40]
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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btw if anyone else has information on the battle of zborov or any other battle fought by the czechoslovak legion, please feel free to add it.
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 | X_VanTagE_X |
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Moderator
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This is a good read. Please do keep posting more, I'd love to read more about this. Quite interresting.
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 | Asperagus |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Fascinating...
@Gamma: Bekäme ich Ärger, wenn ich dem Verfasser des Threads sagen würde, er möge mir mit seinen Tschechen gestohlen bleiben?
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 | Sgt Iznogood |
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Good reading , yes indeed !!!!!!!!
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 | Radetzky |
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Clan: european.Xtreme.elite
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more about the czechoslovak legion you can read in the book "Krieg am Isonzo". This is the german title, but i know, that the autor was a czech man who lived Austria-Hungary and then in the USA after the 1st world war (so there should be an english or czech version). He fought for the austrians at the Isonzo and piave and then in the czechoslovak legion. later the sattled to the USA and when he died his son wrote a book about his father with the information of his father's dairy.
only information: the first german university in the austria-Hungarian Empire was in Prague 
bohemia wasn't really 100% czech. it was a mixture between german/austrian and czech people.
[Editiert von Radetzky am 22.Aug.2004 um 18:31]
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Austriae est imperare orbi universo
Motto einer Österreichischen Minensucheinheit im Kosovo:
"Wer suchet der findet, wer drauftritt verschwindet."
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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thanks for reading this forum guys. I dont think i can post much more today, im going to new jersey. I own a copy of "The Good Soldier Svejk and His Fortunes in the World War". Im not sure if that is the english version of the book you were refering to, but it is a good read. It's a satire, like "catch 22", about ww1. I know there were a lot of germans and others in bohemia, which is why later on in this segment i will talk a little bit about post war czech annexations of places like Hultschin. thanks again for reading, and you can look forward to more info in the near future.
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| Bill Kilgore |
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Clan: Team Battlefield 1918
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http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/AS...8175698-2684055
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The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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installment 3: the czechoslovak legion--masaryk's contribution
The czechoslovak legion was formed in russia at the outbreak of war as a unit in the army of russia. In 1917 that changed under the leadeship of prof. tomas masaryk. Masaryk was an educated czech who had held seats in the vienna parliment, and had reputation of being a left wing, almost radical. In 1914, he resigned his seat in parliment and travled through the entente, declaring his support for them. In 1915, he, Eduard Benes and the Slovak Milan Stefanik formed the czechoslovak national council. From the councils formation it strove to take the Czechs serving in the entente and form them into their own units. This plan finally succeded in 1917, and in one of the oddities of history, the country of czecholslovakia had army, several years before it even had its own independece. After several years of trying to convince the russians to support the czechs, Masayrk finally consolidated the czechoslovak legion, just as the Bolshevik Revolution began. Masayrk declared the legion part of the czech national army in france, and in 1918, once the Russians pulled out of the war, attempted to get the legion across the trans-siberian railway, to Vladivostok, and finally to france. During this time, masaryk also got the entente to recongnize the czechoslovak council as the future government of Czechoslovakia.
In the next installment will be about the czechoslovak legion in russia, fighting on behalf of the white armies.
[Editiert von Mad Czech am 23.Aug.2004 um 20:15]
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Tomas masayrk
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Installment 4: The legion in russia
After russia gave up fighting, the czech legion decided to keep fighting. In order to do so, they headed out for Vladivostok to get on boats and from their go to France. Unfortunetly, the russians as a whole were never very friendly with the czechs, and the czechs attempted to stay as neutral as possible in russian internal affairs. Because of Russian distrust, the czechs were forced to travel across siberia in small groups without weapons. Despite mutual distrust, relations were good between the Bolsheviks and the czechs, untill May of 1918.
The trouble only began in May, 1918, when the Bolsheviks yielded to German intrigues and resolved to destroy our army. Already at the beginning of May the Czechs had begun to feel embittered against the Bolsheviks, because in defiance of the agreement their troops were constantly being held up by local Soviets. At Tambov, for instance, they were held up for a whole month. At Tcheliabinsk the Czechs had a serious scuffle with Magyar ex-prisoners on May 26th, and the Bolsheviks sided entirely with the Magyars, even arresting some Czecho-Slavic delegates. The Czechs simply occupied the city, liberated their comrades, and at a congress held by them at Tcheliabinsk on May 28th it was decided to refuse to surrender any more arms and ammunition and to continue transports to Vladivostok, if necessary with arms in their hands.
Despite being unarmed and scattered, the czechs defeated the bolsheviks in just about every battle the two had.
The first victories gained by the Czecho-Slavs over the Bolsheviks were at Penza and Samara. Penza was captured by them after three days fighting at the end of May. Later the Czecho-Slavs also took Sysran on the Volga, Kazan with its large arsenal, Simbirsk and Yekaterinburg, connecting Tcheliabinsk with Petrograd, and occupied practically the whole Volga region.
In Siberia they defeated a considerable force of GermanMagyar ex-prisoners in Krasnoyarsk and Omsk and established themselves firmly in Udinsk. On June 29, 15,000 Czecho-Slavs under General Diderichs, after handing an ultimatum to the Bolsheviks at Vladivostok, occupied the city without much resistance. Only at one spot fighting took place and some 16o Bolsheviks were killed. The Czecho-- Slays, assisted by Japanese and Allied troops, then proceeded to the north and northwest, while the Bolsheviks and German prisoners retreated to Chabarovsk.
In September the Czech and Allied troops from Vladivostok joined hands with the Czecho-Slavs from Irkutsk and western Siberia, and thus gained control over practically the whole trans-Siberian railway. By this means they have done great service to the Allies, especially to Great Britain, by defending the East against the German invaders. Furthermore, it was the Czecho-Slavs bold action which induced Japan and America at last to intervene in Russia and for the sake of Russia, and it was their control of the Siberian railway which made such intervention possible. Let us hope that their action will lead to the regeneration and salvation of the Russian nation.
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Czech soldier in siberia. Czech uniforms during world war one generally copied the armies of the entente with which they fought. (in this case russian)
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Okay this is most likely going to be the last installment, unless anyone has any questions...
installment 5: postwar
Alright, after the war ended, the czech legion was stuck in russia still fighting the reds. Most of them got out around 1919-1920, once the allies decided to abandon the white armies, and leave russia to the communists. The legion returned home as heros, and were treated much like America's founding fathers. Everybody in czechoslovakia loved them, and the americans adored these stout fighters of freedom. But then, in one of the cruel twists of history, everybody forgot about the legion. This is most likely due to the short attention spans of americans, and the communist hatred of the legionnares, that fought and kicked the snot out of the bolsheviks. Because the communists disliked them, they were in a sense written out of history. In cold war era Czechoslovakia, schools did not teach about the legion, and the monuments that honored them were destroyed.
but that is jumping ahead...
directly after the war, the independent democracy of czechoslovakia was created. The people who redrew the map, however, made two key mistakes. the first of which was taking land that belonged to other countries, like germany and poland, and slapping it onto czechoslovakia. This greatly irriated the germans, as in several newly annexed provinces the German population greatly outnumbered the czech! One such province is that of Hultschin. The following picture is a german propaganda postcard showing that the german population (which outnumbered the czechs 16243 to 75700) was being "oppressed" by the czechs. A bit of irony considering that germans had "oppressed" the czechs for over 400 years.
the second major error was lumping the two ethnicly simlar, yet not totally the same, czechs and slovaks. The two groups have different, somewhat similar languages, but the slovaks have a few more letters in their alphabet. Also, the czechs were more urbanized while the slovaks were mainly agrian. (these difference resulted in the "velvet seperation" after the "velvet revolution" in the early '90s)
well that's all i have time for now, if anyone has questions feel free to ask. I might add more to this section latter tonight or tomorrow
edit: note the word oppressed is in quotes. This is the type of language that the propaganda from both sides used.
[Editiert von Mad Czech am 29.Aug.2004 um 18:57]
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| X_VanTagE_X |
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Very good read, and very interresting at that to. Good job, was fun to learn something new.
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| Jagdpanther |
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Moderator
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Except for the bit about the Germans "suppressing" the Czech... this sort of thing was not very nice, agreed, but everyone was doing it back then - smaller nationalities which happened to be inside the own empire were suppressed to stop them kicking apart the country, which was especially the case in multi-ethnic countries like Austria-Hungary and the Russian Empire (and still is the case in Rusia today). At least, the Germans did not kill and drive out the Czech like they did with the Germans after WWII, without a trace of pity, apology or compensation to this very day. The laws that legalized expropriatation and exile are still in place today, something not worthy of an EU country, I think. The Czech should - at least - say that it was not right to exile all of their German citizens after the war, this way, the two nations could get along better.
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Im Krieg verrohen die Sitten. Warum soll man eine Tür aufschließen, wenn man auch mit dem Sturmgeschütz dagegenfahren kann?
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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jagdpanther, i agree with you. What the czechs did after ww2 was not justified, eventhough the germans (under hitler) had destroyed several villages and killed all their inhabitants. The czech people (not all, but some) also drove out and killed alot of the gypsies living in bohemia after the cold war ended. I do not approve thes two autrocities that czechs carried out, and as i said, their is no excuse.
My statment about the german's suppressing the czechs was merely to show the historical irony that some germans eventually came under czech rule. I used words with more negative conotations, like "suppresion" because a lot of my sources, especially the ones from that time period, used words like that.
Me saying i had a lack of pity was a sarcastic statment.
I was being a bit over general in certain areas, like the background info, which i aplogize for, i just didnt have the time to go into a lot of detail. I apologize if i have offended anyone by what i wrote, believe me, it was totally unintentional.
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| Radetzky |
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Clan: european.Xtreme.elite
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i have only one question. Do you mean with "germans" the austrians too?
That is a piture of the north of the democracy of czechoslovakia. But in the south, some parts of the country where most of the inhabitants were austrians fall to czechoslovakian terretory, like Znaim/Znojmo and Brünn/Brno and the areas arround these cities. I can't find my history book yet where a picture of zechoslovakia is and those terretories were already more austrains/germans lived  . But I'll post this picture when i find this book. There the czechs also treat the austrains bad and forced them to sattle out from 1918 on.
[Editiert von Radetzky am 29.Aug.2004 um 20:47]
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Motto einer Österreichischen Minensucheinheit im Kosovo:
"Wer suchet der findet, wer drauftritt verschwindet."
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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i really didnt talk about the austrians in the czech republic, i mainly just wanted to point out that there were groups in czech lands after the redrawing of the maps, and not get to specific
[Editiert von Mad Czech am 29.Aug.2004 um 22:51]
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| Jagdhippo |
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Clan: [LLJK]
Postings: 1927
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Mad Czech I am 1/2 czech so you're not alone here, I will stand with you My Czechoslovakian Brother, and Mad Czech Happy St. Nick Day. 
Hope you got much candy in your sock!
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSczech.htm
[Editiert von Rac00n am 07.Dec.2004 um 02:22]
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| Jagdhippo |
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Clan: [LLJK]
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The Battle of Zborov was the main commemorative site of Czechoslovakia's heroic military cult during the interwar era. The shifting fortunes of its commemoration reveal political attempts to reframe national questions for ideological ends. Zborov was an important symbol, because it was the nexus of the military and diplomatic-political efforts to found the state. The festivities on 2 July provided members of the military with the opportunity to demonstrate their prowess in the name of Zborov and to reassert their role in the creation of Czechoslovakia. The communist coup d'état in February 1948 spelled the end of the Czechoslovak national-military tradition that included Zborov. After 1989, the Battle of Zborov, like other historic events that had been downplayed or ignored under communism, enjoyed renewed interest. The "spirit of Zborov" has not been, however, an important part of a "usable past" in the post-communist Czech Republic or Slovakia, perhaps because it was so intimately associated with the formation of the First Czechoslovak Republic
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| KWI KWAG |
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Clan: Canadian Engineers
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Man, you can write eloquently when you want to...
Thanks for the info!
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| Jagdhippo |
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Clan: [LLJK]
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| Mad Czech |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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yea thanks racoon. We should start a czech posse and beat up some irish (just for the hell of it lol). glad to hear im not the only czech in this community.
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| Jagdhippo |
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Clan: [LLJK]
Postings: 1927
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GO POSSE!!!!! Ive had my eyes on the irish for a while.....and i want some of that beer
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