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| FL18 - Frontline18 .:. Forum > Belgian and minor Entente partners usage of armor query? |
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Thema: Belgian and minor Entente partners usage of armor query? |
 | vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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Hi! I'm a new person here, looks like a great site! Here's my question:
I'm looking for info about Belgian, Portuguese, Italian, Greek, Serbian, Montenegrin, Albanian, Macedonian, Romanian, etc..., employment of armor, in particular, TANKS.
I'm aware of the use of A.C.'s in the various fronts, but what about TANKS? Did the Belgians receive French or British models as soon as they were available, or what? And how many, when were they deployed/saw service/where used, etc...
Same question goes for the other partners listed. Footnotes and sources are very appreciated please. Thanks for helping me get this sorted out.
Yours,
Ernest (aka vikingcelt)
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 | Badger[Fr] |
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Actually, the Italian army made one of the finest tanks of WW1, the Fiat 2000. It outperformed the French Saint-Chamond and the German A7V, and was also one of the very first tanks to feature a turret. Check this out: http://www.landships.freeservers.co...iatprojdata.htm
[Edited by Badger[Fr] at 09.Feb.2007 and 20:13]
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 | Jagdpanther |
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Unfortunately, the war was finished before the Fiat 2000 hit the frontlines...
The major warring factions all used armour to some extent, although the Central Powers realized too late what uses this weapon might have, which was one of the reasons for losing the war, although not the most prominent one. Smaller armies mostly made use of foreign vehicles they were equipped with by the major factions (if they had armoured vehicles at all), except Belgium which had its own brand of armoured cars in the first days of the war, they gave the advancing Germans quite a headache and were the example for their own armoured cars.
For the factions you mentioned: Albania had fallen back into anarchy shortly after the start of the war, so all the forces present there were mostly tribal war bands until first the Serbs, then Italians and Austrians seized the country. As Macedonia was then part of Serbia, there was no Macedonian army to start with. Portuguese forces didn't in fact see a lot of action, if any, and Serbs and Montenegrins had difficulty in even finding enough rifles or, in fact, uniforms to bother with this sort of thing before their countries were conquered by the Central Powers.
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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agreed -
But didn't they get to join in at the kill??? In the end of the war - Turkey and Austria-Hungary were crumbling, as well as Bulgaria; Serbia bounced back very lively in revenge for being shoved around, and Serbia even contributed troops to the interventionist expedition sent to Russia in order to attempt to help the fight against the Bolshevist/Communist forces during the beginning of the Russian Revolution... (my source: The First World War, Hew Strachan)
In any event, do you have any specific references "in black and white" as to where you got the info, that absolutely NO TANKS AT ALL were ever used or deployed by ANY of those countries mentioned???
At this point, I would be fairly satisfied if I could only at least find out about the Belgian deployment of armor BEFORE 11/11/18; whether they had any tanks or not, which types, how many, when deployed and where???
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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PS:
IIRC, even though the Portuguese were supposedly stationed in a comparably "quiet" sector of the Western Front, they encountered a heavy assault of the vanguard of German Stosstruppen in their sector during the onset of the "Michael" offensive; therefore had to put up a fight; they were supported on both sides with strong British units, so they didn't fair too badly... (Strachan/1st World War)
Their motivation???...the Portuguese had to "show up" at the Western Front anyway in order to be sure of any expectations in the security of their own colonial holdings elsewhere in the world, namely in Africa and China, to name a few...they had to "show up" to be "counted in" at the "victory table" at the end of the war...England wasn't the only one concerned about her Empire holdings!!!
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 | sgtkar98 |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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And Brazil?
I heard we just sended minor medical groups to the war...But I don´t know if this is right.
BTW,Russia was so weak as many people say?
They didn´t had tanks,cars and they had only horses....
[Edited by sgtkar98 at 10.Feb.2007 and 03:19]
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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Oh for pete's sake, aren't there any scholars on this website???
"Is there a scholar in the house???"
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 | Col. Fokkhof |
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The Belgians had the Minerva Armoured Car, the very first real armoured car ever built. I think there is a German history article on this site describing them, together with some images.
The Belgians even sent a division to Russia together with some of these Minerva's to help them. They did this because some personal troubles in the Belgian command staff, and in order to restore order between the commanders they sent one that was in the dispute to Russia, so the allied countries (Belgium was not Allied, remember that, during the whole war) could also see this as some goodwill.
Later in the war, the Belgian Army got some FT17 tanks from the French. I don't think they were any different from the French ones, maybe a Belgian insignia on them but I'm not sure.
I think that's all types of armour the Belgians used.
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I died in hell, they called it Passchendaele.
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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Col Fokkhof:
OK, I get it - haha
Thanks for the response; do you have any documentation to back up your claims about the Belgians receiving FT-17's? We already know about the A.C. situation, it's very well documented - yes, the Minerva - we know;
We're many concerned about TANKS in this post, if you read the question...
Do you know where you read about the Belgians receiving or using FT-17's, and how many did they get, and where/when were they deployed???
Responses like "I think they were", or "I heard that", or "maybe they..", "I assume they did...", this won't do here, we'e mainly concerned with HARD FACTS here, backed up with a SOURCE - like was it from a BOOK, (and which book?), or a documentary, or a magazine/periodical article, was it on the internet? which website???
I also "THINK" the Belgians had TANKS too, but until we get any solid evidence that they did in fact have, and use tanks on the Western Front - it's merely CONJECTURE, GUESSING, and FANTASY!!!
FOLKS; I'm looking hard - trying to find ANY evidence to support this assumption, but I just can't find anything to back this assumption up yet!!!
WHERE IS IT RECORDED THAT THE BELGIANS HAD AND DEPLOYED IN COMBAT ANY TANKS DURING THE ACTUAL FIGHTING OF WORLD WAR I??? (I mean BEFORE the armistice on 11/11/18!!!)
ANYONE???
UNTIL WE GET FACTS PEOPLE, WE MAY AS WELL BE PLAYING SPACE BALLS, AND LORD OF THE RINGS FANTASY!!!
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| Badger[Fr] |
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| Col. Fokkhof hat folgendes geschrieben: | | The Belgians had the Minerva Armoured Car, the very first real armoured car ever built. |
I thought the Charron was the first armoured car ever built.
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| vikingcelt |
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Badger:
"..I thought...I thought...I think...I heard..."
Where did you hear that the Charron, etc...???
Do you have a source for anything you heard, thought, think, etc...???
SOURCES PEOPLE, DOCUMENTATION, FOOTNOTES!!!
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| sgtkar98 |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Mmmm...
Nothing found at Wikipedia about Charron,only Char B1:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_..._Charron_B1_Bis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank
I don´t know...errr,I´m sure that this isn´t what you´re looking for,but...
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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Hopefully I may be getting more positive results within a few days; I've written a letter of inquiry about the same subject to the Military Museum in Brussels, Belgium. They have tanks from WWI on display. Surely THEY must have the documentation to shed light on this question - if they don't, I'm afraid no one will...
Until I receive word, I guess we'll have to wait...
(Boy, with all the hits I've been getting on this topic, you'd think there'd be more knowledgeable folks contributing their insight; I guess as the French would say, "C'se la vie", right???)
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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I've found a scholarly article related to the Bovington Tank Museum in England, which I think will be helpful in our discussion, so I'll try to paste it in this box here:
Witold J. Lawrynowicz
April 30, 1999
The Renault FT Tank - Conception, Construction and Combat
(A short summary of the entire work)
The Renault FT 17 at the Bovington Tank Museum
General Information
Work encompasses:
10 chapters
9 maps
Approximately 100 pages of text
39 sources and 8 periodicals used in bibliography
Part I: History
Development
The Renault FT tank was a brainchild of Gen. Jean-Baptiste Estienne who approached French industrialist, Louis Renault, in July 1916 with the idea of building a light, small, and inexpensive tank. Renault had not participated in the tank program previously, citing the overwhelming workload of his company, but the idea of building an entirely new tank captured his attention. The challenge was accepted and in October 1916 a wooden mock-up of the tank was presented to Gen. Estienne. It was the beginning of a long fight.
Gen. Estienne could not convince the Director of Motor Services, Gen. Mourret, to allocate funds and authorize a pilot program. Consequently, he appealed to the Commander-in-Chief, Gen. Joffre, for support. After a dispute with the Under-Secretary of State for War, Albert Thomas, the production of a single prototype was authorized. Louis Renault did not wait for formal permission, and started construction of a prototype immediately after completion of the work on an improved wooden mock-up. Char Mitrailleur, as the tank was named, was presented for the first time in January 1917. It successfully completed tests in the Billancourt factory in February, 1917 and in April, 1917 in the Centre Artillerie Speciale at Champlieu.
The first production order for 100 tanks was placed after approval of the Comite Consultatif de l'Artillerie Speciale in December 1916. The order was expanded from 150 tanks in February 1917, to 1000 in April 1917, and to 3500 in June 1917. By October 1918, total orders in French factories for all types of Renault tanks reached an unprecedented number of 7820. Production was extended to other factories, which by the end of the war, built 3530 tanks of which 3177 Renault FT was accepted by the Ministry of Armament. The breakdown of the factory production was as follows: Renault 1850, Berliet 800, SOMUA 600, and Delaunay-Belleville 280.
Production of the Renault FT created numerous technical challenges for the French industry. Armor plate was imported from England, and Renault was forced to reject 40% of it because many shipments did not adhere to specifications. There was a shortage of 37 mm Puteaux guns, tank engines, and skilled work force. Some problems, like breaking fan belts and poor quality fuel filters, were not corrected until the end of the war. Many front units were incapacitated by the scarcity of spare parts and poor workmanship. The number of mechanical breakdowns was in general higher than loses due to enemy activity.
Renault continued production after the war manufacturing an additional 570 tanks which became the backbone of the French armament export. Renault FT tanks were sold to Belgium, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Finland, Holland, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Switzerland, Sweden and Yugoslavia.
The Light Tank Renault FT Described
The Renault FT was the first tank with a full traverse 360o rotating turret. It had a modern, still used, configuration of main elements: driver in the front, engine in the rear and armament in a fully traversable turret in the center. The basic form was an armored box narrow in the front, wider in the center, and narrowing to the rear. The running gear was flexibly attached to the hull, unlike the earlier French and British tanks which had chassis. The running assembly was mounted on a heavy longitudinal girder carried on leaf springs. The rail carrying supporting rollers was attached on a pivot in the rear and tensioned on a coiled spring at the front. This construction allowed for more comfortable running over rough terrain. A big idler wheel in the front, projecting forward from the tank, permitted it to cross vertical obstacles and climb steep slopes. The adjustable idler also served to put tension on the tracks preventing them from slipping. The driving sprocket was placed at the rear of the vehicle.
Steering was performed through a simple declutching and breaking the transmission to the tracks on either side. A tail was fitted to the rear of the tank to increase its length and improve trench crossing capability.
The crew consisted of two soldiers, driver up front and gunner in the turret. The driver entered the tank through the double door in the front which formed the decking, while the gunner through the hatch at the rear of the turret. The driver would sit on a canvas seat on the floor in the front and his view of the battlefield was provided for by three slots and an opening shutter. The gunner had a canvas belt, serving as a seat, attached to the sides of the manually operated turret. The turret was surmounted by a mushroom shaped dome on a small rim with five observation slits.
In addition to the two main models of the Renault FT (37 mm gun and 8 mm machine gun) two other models were conceived and put in to production. Char Signal TSF was a radio tank version of the Renault FT equipped with an E 10 ter radio. This variant had no armament which was replaced by the long observation slit in the front of a box-like turret. The crew consisted of driver, radio operator and observer. The wire antenna was extended between the turret top and tail. The other model was the Char FT 75 BS, armed with the 75 mm Blockhouse Schneider "petoire" howitzer. The gun was placed in an extended turret with the gunners hatch moved to the left. Ammunition was reduced to 30 rounds due to the increased caliber of the gun.
Organization
Renault tanks were grouped into 9 regiments, numbered 501 - 509, which consisted of 3 battalions each. Every battalion contained 3 tank companies and numbered 75 tanks with mixed armament when at full strength. Each company had a headquarter with 1 tank (Renault FT 37 mm), three platoons with 5 tanks each, a reserve with 5 replacement tanks and a recovery platoon with 3 tanks. The remaining 3 tanks were kept in reserve at battalion's headquarters. Organization tables quickly became untenable during the combat due to high levels of attrition. Number of mechanical defects and ditching were by far the main causes of tank losses. Enemy action accounted for a relatively small number of tanks eliminated in combat.
The Renault in Combat
The 501st Tank Regiment was the first Renault FT unit committed to action. Renaults were used on the 31st of May 1918 in the support of Gen. Mangin's 10th Army, in order to slow German progress toward Paris. The engagement took place in the Foret de Retz, south-west of Soissons. Three battalions were used piecemeal in the support of Moroccan infantry, in a series of local counterattacks which were sometimes executed in the forest itself. Renault tanks proved their battle worthiness from the start, leading infantry in the attack and stiffening it's resolve in defense. Thanks to the small size of the tank they could enter forested areas, where larger British Mark V or French St. Chamond and Schneider were useless.
The main task of tank units was to eliminate machine gun nests and destroy barbed-wire obstacles, enabling infantry to cross no-man's-land. The principal advantages of the Renault tanks were their small size, agility on the battlefield, and large numbers. French troops praised their support by the light tanks and demanded it in every operation. Although tank - infantry cooperation was poor due to lack of training, nevertheless, infantry units always requested the support of the tanks in every offensive operation.
Renault FTs were used in combat from the 31st of May to the 11th of November, 1918, taking part in 4356 engagements, losing only 746 (17%), of them. Field guns were the main threat to the tanks, accounting for 356 totally destroyed Renaults, of 440 lost during the war. The other threats were: mines, tank traps, and the Mauser antitank rifles. Antitank trenches, shell holes and wide infantry trenches temporarily put more tanks out of action than direct engagement with the enemy.
Battle of Marna- July 18, 1918
Renault FT - List of Actions
31.V - 28.VI.18 Foret de Retz
18.VII - 20.VIII.18 Soissons
28.VIII - 14.IX Crecy-au-Mont
12.IX - 16.IX St. Mihiel
26.IX - 3.X Champagne
26.IX - 3.X Meuse - Argonne
4.X - 9.XI Meuse - Argonne
26.IX - 20.X Flandres
17.X - 20. X St. Quentin
At the end of the war the French army fielded 1991 Renault tanks in line units and another 386 in workshops.
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| Col. Fokkhof |
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| vikingcelt hat folgendes geschrieben: | | Renault continued production after the war manufacturing an additional 570 tanks which became the backbone of the French armament export. Renault FT tanks were sold to Belgium, Brazil, Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Finland, Holland, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Switzerland, Sweden and Yugoslavia. |
I think here's a part of your answer... I think I heared it from Parabellum on this forum (if you need to ask someone about WW1 history, it's him, he knows everything) but I also saw a photo of them somewhere in my books... If you give me some time, I'll look it up in my library and post the answer here soon!
| Badger[Fr] hat folgendes geschrieben: | | Col. Fokkhof hat folgendes geschrieben: | | The Belgians had the Minerva Armoured Car, the very first real armoured car ever built. |
I thought the Charron was the first armoured car ever built. |
The book "The First World War" by H.P. Willmott states that the Belgians were the first to ever use armoured cars. If I find any other sources about this, I'll tell you 
//EDIT: @vikingcelt: I'm terribly sorry - I can't give you any affirmation about those Belgian FT17's in WWI... What I DO know, and of which you can find much info on the internet, is that the Belgians had several of these FT17's at the start of the SECOND World War, but they didn't use them anymore since too old. I cannot tell you if these were received DURING or AFTER WWI, so maybe we just have to cry for Parabellum?
[Edited by Col. Fokkhof at 11.Feb.2007 and 14:38]
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I died in hell, they called it Passchendaele.
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| Badger[Fr] |
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The Belgians were the first to use armored cars, but not to build them, according to Landships: http://www.landships.freeservers.co..._charron_ac.htm
[Edited by Badger[Fr] at 11.Feb.2007 and 16:40]
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| Col. Fokkhof |
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| Zitat: | | The Army of Belgium was quite to the forefront when it came to motorization before 1914, and they were the first to field Armoured Cars in any quantity. |
- -Landships-
A bit of a contradiction on their site... Hm I think it's because the Belgians were the first ones to be attacked, and so the first ones to use their equipment. Thanks for dragging my attention to this subject!
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I died in hell, they called it Passchendaele.
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| Badger[Fr] |
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You must be right. The Minerva was the first armored car to be used during WW1. Earlier AFVs were built, but were mere prototypes.
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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I'm not speaking from knowledge here, but what about on the Austria-Hungary vs Serbia and Russia Front? Austria-Hungary was the first to strike a blow in WWI, IIRC - didn't they have some strange, early types of A.C.'s driving around before then??? I know A.C.'s were around at least 9 years before 1914, so it's anyone's guess who actually used and Armored Car first in the opening moments of the Great War... I know of a certain modeler's own gallery in which he has an early A.C. on manuevers pre-WWI; I'll try to bring it up here next post...
In the meantime, the more I read about the topic, the less I am convinced that Belgium actually fielded any types of TANKS whatsoever, whichever models may have existed, before the end of the war on 11/11/18. Though it did seem to me almost elementary they would have them, being an Entente partner, though now it seems less plausible... (Too bad really, I love the colors of the Belgian flag, and wanted to decorate some tanks with Belgian red, black and yellow...)
Logically, the Entente had plenty of tanks to go around - you'd think they'd give the Belgians a few, right??? Then again, Britain, France and the USA were using plenty of tanks in most engagements up to the very end of the war, so I guess they really didn't need another partner to "wield them" against the Huns...you'd think that it always helps to give your allies the most "cutting-edge" weaponry in your arsenal to defeat ana dispatch the common foe as soon as possible, especially since everyone was growing very tired of the war, and the waste of young men's lives, etc....
Hey, PARABELLUM!!! Where are you???
I'm still awaiting my reply from the brains over at the Bovington Museum, so it shouldn't be long...
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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As for the 1903/04 Austro-Daimler A.C. diorama, try the following link:
http://www.diorama-dreamland.at/
- When you get to the website, choosethe Gallery Index, then pick the Austro-Daimler A.C. circa 1903/04 diorama, which shows a vignette of Austro-Hungarian cavalry on practice maneuvers in conjunction with the Austro-Daimler A.C. It's a very nice diorama...
My point in showing the diorama being the Austro-Hungarians could have beaten the Belgians in becoming the first ones to deploy and use A.C.'s in WWI, seeing as they enjoined hostilities before Germany and Belgium and/or France did, being the ones to fire the first shots...
Then again, (not to open a "can of worms"), what about the during the 1st and 2nd Balkan wars, or the Italo-Turkish War of 1911, which both preceded WWI??? It is entirely conceiveable and possible that the very first employment of Armored Cars in warfare happened in either of those conflicts too, seeing as Armored cars did in fact exsist during those times....Hmmmmm....????
(This is getting somewhat off-topic now; let's go back to the original question as to whether Belgium and the other minor Entente allies did, or did not have tanks before the end of WWI???
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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Correction on the last post:
- The diorama website selection should be, "Austro-Daimler A.C. circa 1906", and not "1903/04", sorry!!!
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| Badger[Fr] |
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I'm pretty sure that armored cars featuring Hotchkiss MGs were used by the Young Turks during the Turkish Revolution of 1908. I'll try to find some references for you.
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| vikingcelt |
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See, this is very cool - enlightenment to the mind of the WWI history fanatic!!!
Anyhow, I got a response from the belgiam Military Museum, and my suspicions have been confirmed! Belgium, bieng a neutral country, probably would violate her neutral status under pre-Versailles laws if she had acquired what may have been defined as offensive weapons; the Hon. Colonel Jean-Pierre Rausman of the Belgian Military Museum confirms this; he is our correspondence so far, in which I have requested further guidance to deeper informatin on the subject:
to:
the Honorable Jean-Pierre Hausman, ir
Colonel BEM e.r.
Charge' de mission
Colonel Hausman:
One considers it a pure honor and privilege to address the Colonel. One is grateful for the Colonels' quick and gracious reply, and for his taking the time to consider and answer one's questions out of the Colonels' undoubtedly precious and important daily schedule.
One sees a little better now how it fits together, it's becoming more clear. Belgium, as a neutral country, couldn't arm herself with what may have been classified as offensive weapons, to maintain her neutral world status, it that correct? Hmmm...
Then, could the Colonel please help one understand the difference, in terms of the pre-Versailles world, of what did and did not constitute a defensive weapon? Certainly, Belgium was equipped with an artillery corps, and cavalry as well, was she not? Surely, the Colonel can see to where one is leading.
Since ones' studies have become more and more specific, one has been having to comb through volumes of material to find tidbits of information; would the Colonel be so kind as to suggest the best publications, material, websites, etc..., in order to best facilitate ones' further in-depth study of this topic specifically?
One has grown to admire the courage, and the sterling character of the Belgian people in their historic struggles through ones' travels and studies, and have been touched by the friendship of her people. I am grateful to the Colonel for any help he may lend to complete one's understanding of the facts concerning this important part of Belgium's Great War history.
In Humble Thanks and Warm Regards,
Ernest Nygard
>From: Jean-Pierre HAUSMAN <jean-pierre.hausman@klm-mra.be>
>To: vikingcelt@hotmail.com
>CC: Eric Roos <Eric.Roos@klm-mra.be>
>Subject: WWI Belgian Tank History
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:34:20 +0100
>
>Sir,
>
>Belgium was a neutral country til 1914 and had no tanks during WWI.
>We received our first tanks (Renault FT 17) from France in 1919!
>
>Best regards
>
>J-P. HAUSMAN, ir
>Colonel BEM e.r.
>Chargé de mission
>
>
>------ Forwarded Message
>From: Ernest Nygard <vikingcelt@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:23:04 +0100
>To: <eric.roos@klm-mra.be>
>Subject: WWI Belgian Tank History
>
>Dear Sir, or Madam:
>
>Hi! We visited Belgium and the Royal Museum of the Armed Forces and
>of
>Military History in 2005, and had a great time! Belgium is beautiful
>and
>people are so friendly! Your Museum is fantastic too!
>
>I am a big history buff, and am researching the history of Entente
>\'s
>usage of tanks during the Great War, 1914-1918.
>
>I am trying to find factual data exactly documenting the very first
>deployment of tanks with the Belgian Army.
>
>Can you tell me exactly which types of tanks, if any at all, were
>received
>by the Belgian Army, when they were deployed, and in which battles
>they
>participated as strictly Belgian Army tank forces fighting the
>Imperial
>German Army in the Western Front prior to the Armistice on November
>11,
>1918?
>
>Any information on unit designations, their respective TOE's and
>OOB's would
>also be greatly appreciated.
>
>I have been searching for this information by myself on the
>Internet; my
>local libraries have no information on this very specific data at
>all. Even
>my Internet search has turned up nothing specific so far.
>
>I am a military modeler also, and an avid miniatures wargamer, and I
> want to
>build my Belgian forces properly, with exactly the same equipment,
>or lack
>of equipment which was the case in WWI, 1914-1918, to stay perfectly
>historical and accurate.
>
>Thank you so much for your attention to this matter, any help will
>be
>greatly appreciated. Be well, and have a pleasant afternoon.
>
>Sincerely,
>Ernest Nygard
>Spotswood, NJ
>USA
>
>This mail has been sent as from http://www.klm-mra.be
>
>
>------ End of Forwarded Message
>
You see, what we may consider as an "assumed" fact, may wind up making an "ass" out of "u" and "me". (IE: "ass-u-me")
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| Col. Fokkhof |
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How very interesting... Well, that's one thing I have to remember
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I died in hell, they called it Passchendaele.
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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P.S.:
Have any of you checked out the diorama on the previously posted link for the Austro-Daimler A.C.? I was just wondering what any of you thought of it - this dude is truly talented!!!
Now, I am about to write to the Austrian Military Museum, to see if they used this A.C. in combat in the beginning???
Then, possibly the Turkish or Italian Museums...eventually, we'll find out who exactly employed tanks and A.C.'s first...
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