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| FL18 - Frontline18 .:. Forum > WWI Aircraft Used in Ground Support |
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Thema: WWI Aircraft Used in Ground Support |
 | vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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I was wondering about the use of planes to support troops in ground assaults; which planes were used by each side, and when did this occur?
I'd also like to know if the bigger bombers, like the Ilya Muromets, Gotha, Handley-Page 1/100-400, and other large planes were used to bomb enemy troops in support of the push forward in each combatant's offensives??? If so, when where and who were they???
Thanks friends!!!
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 | Meadow |
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My limited knowledge tells me that the Albatros C.III (I think) featured in BF1918 was, in the real war, fitted with a single bomb for ground attack purposes. How often it was used as such I do not know.
I hope you do not shout at me for not knowing as much as you'd like me to, as you appear to have done to others in the past...
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 | Badger[Fr] |
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The Italians used Caproni bombers to destroy the Piave river's bridges during the Austrian offensive of 1918.
[Edited by Badger[Fr] at 27.Feb.2007 and 11:42]
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 | Sentenza |
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Well, close air support was not really very common in WWI, mostly because the airplanes were quite fragile and vulnerable to gunfire from the trenches. There were some difficulties in coordinating such combined attacks as well. Nevertheless there were some serious attempts towards the end of the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_air_support#WWI
At least the British developed special Trench Fighter aircraft, like the Sopwith Camel TF1 (TF = Trench Fighter) or the Sopwith Salamander. The Camels were equipped with machineguns directed downwards to attack enemy trenches during diving and/or level flight. The Salamander was specificly designed for ground attacks and therefore quite robust.
(Model of a Sopwith Camel TF)
(Sopwith Salamander in experimental camouflage)
As for the large bombers like H.P. 0/100, Gotha or Sikorsky: I don't know, but as far as I know they were mainly used for strategic operations against German industry and cities.
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 | sgtkar98 |
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The Albatross can be considered a WWI Stuka?
Well,attack aircraft were used.
| firstworldwar website hat folgendes geschrieben: | Ground attack is a close relative to tactical bombing. It is aimed at disrupting enemy forces at or near the front and during the course of the battle itself. While strategic and tactical bombing raids are planned and directed at specific targets, ground-attack is often carried out against targets of opportunity, as they appear on a changing battle-field. It is carried out by strafing and by dropping small munitions such as hand grenades. Ground attack is carried out from very low altitudes and is thus both extremely accurate and extremely hazardous.
During the Battle of Messines, in June of 1917, British air force commander Hugh Trenchard ordered the British pilots to fly low over the lines and strafe whatever targets presented themselves. This was in order to harass the troops and break their morale. |
The bombers I only know that the Ilya Mourumetz was designed by Igor Sikorsky,more know by his helicopters.
I just wonder if the Zeppelin R VI,the Ilya Mourumetz and an american bomber called Martin MB saw service on the war.
All of those were from 1918 (Ilya Mourumetz was from 1915),but may be like the later Heinkel Salamander that was released just for be captured by the russians.
And how were the navy planes,if the first carriers are from 192(2?)?
EDIT
Oh,yes,and I´m not sure if the biplanes could dive.I saw in Flyboys a plane doing a violent dive in a dogfight.But movie is movie...
[Edited by sgtkar98 at 27.Feb.2007 and 01:31]
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| Sentenza |
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| sgtkar98 hat folgendes geschrieben: | | And how were the navy planes,if the first carriers are from 192(2?)? |
Most naval planes in WWI were either flying boats (quite popular in Austro-Hungaria, Italy and Great Britain) or had a floating undercarriage. They were launched from naval bases or special naval aircraft carriers.
(HMS Engadine, Source: battleships-cruisers.co.uk)
The British also had airplanes on some of their battleships. They were launched from platforms on the main turrets of the ship and either had to land on a land base or go down out at sea and hope for rescue...
Towards the end of the war the Royal Navy made an attempt to modify a battlecruiser, HMS Furious to make it possible to launch airplanes from a platform at the bow of the ship. There were several stages of modification. In the begining, the pilot had to land on the same platform. Later the ship got an additional aft platform, which was still separated from the one at the bow, and finally the Furious received a full-scale flight deck.
Evolution of HMS Furious: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/...h-f/furis-6.htm
| Zitat: | Oh,yes,and I´m not sure if the biplanes could dive.I saw in Flyboys a plane doing a violent dive
in a dogfight.But movie is movie... |
I originally didn't mean some sort of wild dive-bombing attempt. Early planes could indeed be destroyed by an all to violent maneuver, if not from the dive itself then from pulling up at high speed, which was quite dangerous, too. From what I know, especially the Austro-Hungarian Aviatik-Berg D.I fighters had a tendency to disintegrate in such maneuvers.
[Editiert von Sentenza am 27.Feb.2007 um 13:30]
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| vikingcelt |
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Mr meadow:
Please forgive me if I've given the impression of a hard nosed insensitive prig - I welcome any and all comments, just like to know where they got their informtion - for factual verification purposes - if you don't know, just say you don't, and see if you can come up with the source of your info - that's all!!!
No biggie!!!
Thanks all!!!
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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Here's a fabulous article I found about the Ilya Muromets - it made it's first bombing mission in 1915 against the Villenburg Railroad Junction, and was very effective, due to it's accurate bomb sight - during it's WWI record of operations, it achieved at least a 60% accuracy rate for hitting the target - quite impressive for it's day, eh?
It also shot down about 10x more fighters than the fighters trying to shot the Ilya down, and gained a reputation with German pilots in the Eastern Front as "the Hedgehog", because it bristled with machineguns; see here and look:
The War in the Air - Bombers: Russia
Updated - Saturday, 9 August, 2003
Long before his pioneering work on helicopters, Igor Sikorsky became interested in multi-engined aircraft. This interest was sparked in 1911 after he nearly crashed when an insect caught in the carburettor of his single engined plane.
In 1913 he built the world’s first four engined airplane, the "Grand" and he followed this experimental aircraft with the "Ilya Murometz" in late 1913. Named after a medieval Russian folk hero, the Ilya Murometz was an astonishingly sophisticated plane for one built a mere ten years after Kitty Hawk.
Designed as a civil transport, the Murometz featured a number of extraordinary features: an enclosed cabin capable of holding 16 passengers; heating provided by channelling exhaust gases through radiator pipes; electric lighting powered by an on-board wind generator; there was even an on board toilet. Sikorksy even provided for in-flight access to the engines – a sign of his lack of faith, and their general unreliability.
The Murometz was produced by the "Russo-Baltic Wagon Company." Its director, Mikhail Shidlovsky, was an ex-navy man with connections to the Russian military. He managed to convince the Imperial Russian Air Force (IRAF) to utilize the Murometz for reconnaissance and bombing purposes.
An order was immediately placed for some planes, and in December 1914 Shidlovsky himself, with the rank of Major General, took over command of the "Squadron of Flying Ships", the Escadra Vozdushnykh Korabley, known as the EVK. Shidlovsky, apparently as shrewd a businessman as Fokker, remained the sole manufacturer. Nobody in pre-soviet Russia seems to have considered this unethical.
The first couple of months of the EVK were almost their last. The pilots were unused to flying such large aircraft, the ground crew were unable to maintain them, and the Murometz rapidly gained a poor reputation. Shidlovsky brought Sikorsky to his base and together they managed to overcome the teething problems.
The EVK’s first operations began in late February of 1915. At this stage they only had one operational aircraft, and it carried out the EVK’s first reconnaissance sortie, which was followed shortly after by a pair of bombing raids against Villenburg station.
In these two raids nineteen men and a number of horses were killed, the station along with rolling stock was destroyed, and there was widespread panic. After dropping the bombs the crew took reconnaissance photos.
The success of their early missions was so great that the EVK was ordered to report directly to the Stavka (Supreme High Command of the Russian Military). This was in keeping with Shidlovsky’s vision of an independent force operating along lines similar to that of a naval fleet. As the war progressed the EVK developed its own photographic unit for the development and distribution of reconnaissance photos, and it also had its own meteorological unit and flight school.
The EVK’s success also brought orders for more planes. Sikorsky continued to develop the Murometz until Russia withdrew from the war in 1917. These later variations were designed with military, as opposed to civilian, requirements in mind.
As a bomber the Murometz was far ahead of its time. It could carry a bomb load of up to 800kg (1760lb), with a range of approximately 500km (310 miles). (The exact performance figures differ from variation to variation.) Equipped with bomb sights, the Murometz was reputed to be more than 60% accurate. The EVK flew both reconnaissance and bombing missions, flying more than 400 bombing sorties.
They flew in all the Russian theatres of conflict, bombing mainly transportation, supply and communications targets. The planes were well known to the Germans, who set up special anti-aircraft batteries when they knew that the EVK was operating in the area. Often these batteries themselves became prime targets of the EVK.
The heaviest bomb the Murometz ever carried was 240 kg (530lb), but usually it carried a mix of explosive and incendiary bombs. It was slow, but sturdy and heavily armed. Its unprecedented size was also an advantage, as it led German pilots to misjudge their distance from it.
The Murometz holds a unique record for any bomber in any conflict: it shot down more enemy fighters than were lost to enemy fire. While only one Murometz was ever lost to enemy aircraft (on the 26th of September 1916), at least ten fighters succumbed to her defensive fire. It is no wonder the German pilots nicknamed the plane the "Hedgehog".
One other Murometz crashed over Russian territory, probably as a result of enemy anti-aircraft fire, and one more was lost due to pilot error.
This is not to say that the planes did not suffer severe battle damage, but Sikorsky had designed an extremely tough aircraft. More than once a Murometz returned to base on two engines only. Sometimes the planes had to be scrapped after bringing the crew back safely. Suffering severe supply shortages throughout the war, the EVK cannibalized the scrapped aircraft.
The main problem with the Murometz was with the engines. The pre-war Murometz was designed to use German-built engines, which obviously were not available. Sikorsky experimented with a range of Russian and British engines, but never achieved the desired level of performance. These problems, together with the low level of Russian manufacturing, meant that only 75 of this outstanding aircraft were produced during the war.
Shidlovsky decided, after the revolution, that he had no future in Russia, and he convinced Sikorsky to leave also. Shidlovsky, together with his son, was captured trying to cross the border into Finland. They were shot. Sikorsky was luckier. From Murmansk he managed to escape by ship to London.
Article contributed by Ari Unikoski
Next >> Bombers - Italy
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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And here's another article about the Zeppelin Staaken R VI; it definitely saw service and was quite useful; bombing London and such, sometimes carrying the largest bombs of the war, read and learn:
Staaken R VI
This was the one R-plane built in substantial numbers, 18 of them, not only by Staaken but also by Albatros, Schütte-Lanz and Aviatik. The R VI was the main R-type operated by the Germans against England along with the smaller and numerous Gotha bombers. They did, on three occasions, drop on London the largest bombs dropped during the war, 1,000kg monsters. None of them were shot down during these raids (only three R-planes were ever shot down; most were lost through accidents). Their contribution was not so much in weight of bombs dropped, so much as the fact that they were tying up so many resources in Britain for Home Defence. Aviatik built the last three machines, with some useful modifications, which they put to use in building the last finished type of the whole Staaken series, the R XVI, a bulkier and much more powerful aircraft. The R VI was unusual in not having an engine in the nose as featured by most other Staaken types. By the way, the R VI was the only R-plane to become a film star: it featured in a post war German silent called The Mistress of the World, emblazoned with the banner of 'Fletcher's World', a fictional newspaper.
This article has much more info about WWI Heavy Bombers, try this link:
http://www.bravenewworld.demon.co.u...iants/index.htm
How do ya like them apples, eh??? ; )
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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And about the Martin MB Bomber - It was just a little too late to see service in WWI; here's another great article on it:
Martin MB-1
Last revised July 5, 1999
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In 1916, Glenn L. Martin withdrew from the Wright-Martin combine that he had been involved with and struck out on his own. The Glenn L. Martin aircraft company was established in Cleveland, Ohio in late 1917.
One of the first Army contracts landed by the new company was the design a new bomber that would hopefully outperform the British-designed Handley-Page, which was at that time scheduled to be built in the USA by Standard Aircraft of Elizabeth, New Jersey.
The aircraft that emerged was designated MB-1 by the Martin company. It was a wooden, fabric-covered biplane powered by a pair of liquid-cooled 400 hp Liberty 12A engines suspended between the wings. The engines were cooled by a set of radiators situated in the front of the engine mounts just above the propeller shaft. Two bays of struts were outboard of the engines. The fixed mainwheels were aligned on a single axle. The tail consisted of twin rudders, mounted on top of a single horizontal stabilizer. A crew of 3 could be carried, a bombardier in a nose position, a pilot, and a gunner in a position in the upper fuselage just aft of the top wing.. The armament consisted of five 0.30-inch machine guns, two in the nose position, two in the aft fuselage position, plus one firing downward and to the rear through a trapdoor. Maximum bombload was 1040 pounds.
The original contract for six examples was issued on January 17, 1918. It was increased to 50 on October 22, 1918, but then was cut back to ten in January 1919.
The first MB-1 flew on August 17, 1918. A total of ten examples were built, the last being delivered to the US Army Air Service in February of 1920. They were designated GMB by the USAAS, where the letters stood for "Glenn Martin Bomber". Their serials were 39055/39060 and 62948/62951. They were the first American-designed bombers to enter service with the USAAS.
The Martin MB-1 had a good performance for its day. However, the Martin bombers were too late to see any action during World War 1. They formed the nucleus of the first Army bomber squadrons during the immediate postwar years. High power and a relatively small size made the GMB also capable of carrying out the long range observation and the escort fighter roles. The first four were built as observation aircraft, and the next three were built as bombers. The eighth (designated GMT for "Glenn Martin Transcontinental") was a special long-range version capable of 1500-mile range, and the ninth (designated GMC for "Glenn Martin Cannon") was fitted with a 37-mm cannon in the nose.
The last example was completed as a transport by removing all the military equipment, raising the top of the fuselage, and adding cabin windows and seats. The pilot's cockpit was enclosed in a glazed enclosure. It was originally given the designation GMP (for "Glenn Martin Passenger"), but was later designated T-1, where the T was in the T-for-Transport series.
Six modified MB-1s were turned over to the US Postal Service and flew air mail delivery runs for a short time during the period when the US government took over the delivery of air mail.
So far as I am aware, no MB-1 aircraft survive today.
Serials of the Martin MB-1:
39055/39060 Martin GMB
62948 Martin GMB
62949 Martin GMT
62950 Martin GMC
62951 Martin GMP (T-1)
Specification of the Martin MB-1:
Two 400 hp Liberty 12A liquid-cooled Vee engines. Maximum speed 105 mph at sea level, 100 mph at 6500 feet. 92 mph cruising speed at sea level. Landing speed 53 mph. Service ceiling 10,300 feet. Absolute ceiling 12,250 feet. Initial climb rate 630 feet per minute. An altitude of 6500 feet could be attained in 14 minutes. Range 390 miles with 1040 pound bombload. Empty weight 6702 pounds, gross weight 10,225 pounds. Wingspan 71 feet 5 inches, length 44 feet 10 inches, height 14 feet 7 inches, wing area 1070 square feet. Defensive armament was five 0.30-inch Lewis machine guns. Bombload was normally 1040 pounds.
Sources:
United States Military Aircraft Since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.
American Combat Planes, 3rd edition, Ray Wagner, Doubleday, 1982.
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| sgtkar98 |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Cool,but is there any Ilya Mourumetz alive today?
I saw one in a museum,but I don´t know where.I got the image from a japanese site....Maybe it´s from there or may be at Monino Aircraft Museum at Russia,but I really don´t know...
What happened to them after the soviets gained power in Russia?
Was well used or was promoted to the "trash" rank?
And I saw in Flyboys also that in bombers,the pilots had to go at the wings to fix the engines.Wasn´t that too dangerous?If you slip,well,there´s a loooong way to the ground...
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| vikingcelt |
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IIRC, I saw either a perfect copy, or a perfectly restored Ilya Muromets on a website from Russia somewhere, wish I remembered where it is, but you may be able to flush it out by an extensive internet search;
and yes, they actually could and did climb on the wings to affect small repairs in flight which could be done while moving - my very own Grampa was a co-pilot/flight mechanic on an old Curtiss H-16 Flying Boat during WWI, and as a co-pilot and mechanic during the early '20's, and he recorded commonly in his log many times when he had to climb out onto the wind to repair an engine "in flight", etc...
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| sgtkar98 |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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Let me see if the picture is here...
Ah,I found one.
It was this that you saw?
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 | HELLCAT |
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German Bomb used by Zeppelin Staaken, Gotha Bombers & Zeppelins
Biggest bomb of WW1 (1650 lbs)
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| vikingcelt |
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Clan: VikingCelt Descendants
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SgtKar98 - very good - there it is!!! very nice pal - I knew it was there somewhere, very nice!!!
Those are some big bombs there; actually I think either the Zeppelin Staaken, or the Handley-Page 0/400 may have held the record for the heaviest bomb, at 2,000 lbs, or 909.09 kgs. I'd haveto do some research to find out where I saw it, but maybe it was on one of the First World War.com articles I shared here; it was just recently that I saw it...
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| sgtkar98 |
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Clan: Kein Clan
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I saw this bomb.
I already asked here what monster could carry that "baby monster".
The bomb looks like to have a propeller,so it may look like a torpedo....
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